[ballen]

I'm still relatively new to the game, but I've been reading like a fiend and have a question for you guys.

When holding A-Xs and the flop comes two more suited cards, how do you like to play the hand? I think I might be playing too aggressive in general, but had a specific question regarding this situation. If it is checked to me, I will bet to build a pot. If it is bet, I have been known to raise on occasion. If I miss the draw on the turn, I will check it and bet if I am offered good odds, same on the river. My question is this: Should I even be thinking about raising with this hand on the flop, or do I need to be smooth calling 100% of the time and checking if checked to me? Assume a loose table and 2-4 callers in the hand. What about when you also have two overcards to the flop(even though this isnt very common)?

Is it better to hit and win a smaller pot, or try to build a larger pot for the times when you do hit, even though this can add to your fluctuation?? Thanks in advance everyone!

[chris]

If you flop a 4-flush with two cards to come, you will complete the flush 33% of the time. Unless the board pairs making someone a full house, you will have the best hand. You should bet this hand for value if you are first to act. I would even consider raising the flop to try and get a free river card if you miss the flush on the turn.

[lork]

A 4-flush with 2 to draw gives roughly 4:1 odds. Look at your pot odds during the hand. Most of the time with multiple callers you will have the odds to continue.

With this type of draw hand, you want players to stay in... so if you raise... will you force players out? Will your pot odds still be correct if most players fold.

I believe again that with many callers a raise may be correct?

Normaly I will not raise until I get the flush,and others have possibly completed a lesser hand, although CTBob brings up a good point also.

[johnf]

I like to bet and/or raise with a nut flush draw for a few reasons. first, you want the pot to grow if you make the flush. second, and most importantly you may even be able to bluff the pot if nothing hits on the turn or river (risky, but occasionally worthwhile). Third, when you do hit the flush they wouldnt be as likely to think you hit the flush because you were betting before the 3rd suit hit the board.

Obviously, ever situation is different and no one way of playing a hand should be used every time.

[chris]

If you don't have the nut flush draw I think it is imperative to play the hand fast on the flop. It's not likely you are up against another player with two of your suit, but you have to beware of the possible backdoor flush draw from the lone ace of your suit. It has happened to me before, I make my flush on the turn and the river brings another card of my suit, and lo and behold I get raised out of nowhere by the guy who chased with A2o and had absolutely no hand until the river.

You want to either drive them out, or make them pay you off for incorrectly chasing lesser hands.

[ballen]

Chris,Thanks for the responses. If I'm not drawing to the nuts and two come on the flop, I'll play it fast on the flop to eliminate players. I normally wont be in there with anything less than K-9s in late or Q-Js, Q-10s, J-10s, 9-10s depending on position and number of callers. With regards to the nut 4 draw, I'm glad to see I am playing it correctly. I'm calling/betting most of the time and raising once in awhile.

Primetime: I agree with the reasons you stated for calling/raising(depending on # of callers). As I stated, I am pretty aggressive and that betting pattern helps to set up a check raise when the flush hits as it is slightly deceptive.

Again, thanks for all the replies!

[pritz]

Just to correct the odds, with 4 to a flush on the flop, you are slightly better than 2:1 (35%) to make your flush by the river, about 4:1 on each of the 2 remaining cards. So, as long as you beleive more than 2 people will call your raise, then the correct odds play is to raise (however, this can be modified if there is a pair on the board...generally then just call against multiple opponents).

With an overpair you have 6 outs, that's 3.2:1 to make a pair. However, take into consideration pre-flop raises that potentially can de-value your overpair even if you do hit one of them, your kicker, and your position...I fold more overcards then I play.

[norshvind]

The odds that someone is holding a flush draw in the same suit as you pre-flop at a 10-handed table: 38%. Truly. Sounds crazy but I'm pretty sure that's right.

Odds that someone is holding an ace-high flush draw against your king-high, pre-flop: roughly 7% when we assume you hold the king. Better than nine times out of ten, if you stuck out every flush draw that hit, you would win it with a king-high flush. But you do have to take into consideration the other players at the table, how they bet their draws/flushes, what cards they play, etc etc.

I personally like to raise my flush draws for value because, as people said, it will disguise your hand and it will get money in the pot. Might even get you free cards, although don't hold your breath for that one.

[ballen]

Thanks for the continued replies guys!! I just want to clarify I play the nut draw differently from the K, Q, J, etc..draw. Chris mentioned something about non-nut draws and I just clarified to him how I played those.

pritz,I was talking about overcards specifically with the nut draw. ie...A-Qs with a board of J-7-3 or something. I definitely do not cling to overcards. Thanks for the math though!

[arcfinn]

I learned something last night. I was playing $.25/$.50 and flopped a Queen high flush (queen in my hand).

What do you think of your hand with that flop? Good, eh? Well, immediately me and one other guy start raising and reraising.

I put him on the flush, but figured that I had good odds with a Q in my hand.

What I later figured out was that with the QUeen in your hand there are 8 cards out that could be in his hand, two of which are higher than my Queen. Thus, odds are 2/8 for his first card and + 2/7 for his second card (assuming his first card isn't higher) that he has a higher flush than I have. That's roughly 54%!

Sure enough, he had the King. So, if you can put someone else on the flush, unless you hold the King or Ace, I'd recommend just calling them out.

Also, if you do happen to hold the king but still can put someone else on the flush, you are still going to lose 26% of the time to their Ace high flush.

[BigAl]

I'd raise. That's not a bad chance of making the flush and you've got the high card in hand so you've no worries about being "outflushed" if that makes any sense.

It's important not to throw everything at this hand, as someone else mentioned there are full houses and 4 of a kinds to watch out for, but unless something odd comes up on the board after the flop then I would be looking at investing big into this one.